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Kalyx ######


File: 1505081605714.jpg (1.78 MB, 3840x2160, Deeper Blue.jpg)

 No.120

I'd like to talk about suicide with you guys? Do you think it's an honorable thing? Should it be done at all? What is your view about suicide and whatever religion you happen to be a part of? I for one think it's a waste but one has full control of whether they want to live or not. We have free will and part of that comes with being able to end it.

 No.121

I think people should be able to do whatever they want with their lives even if it means ending it. If I get to the point that I am forgetting people or need someone to wipe my ass I am killing myself for sure. Self immolation or sky diving and not opening my parachute.

 No.129

I agree that people should have ability to end their lives - I support a right of euthanasia, but there are cases where such desire is a sign of illness rather than legit desire (depression and other mental ilnesses).

I have been in a position where I really wanted to end my life, but I'm really happy that I didn't succeed.

t. person diagnosed with scitzoaffective disorder (depression type).

 No.130

Suicide is cool when you do it on the job. You know like the engineer guy who saves everyone but only because he's mad at the fucking machine and wants to teach it who's boss before its last ride.
Suicide because your life sucks is highly situational:
If people around you say you should give up on life because cancer/age/the zombies are getting you anyway, it's both cool to keep trying anyway, or give up and quit.
If however people around you say that you can do it, that you should keep going… then either you are a little whiny bitch, or have some invisible, very much unique to your perspective sickness that by definition makes you a snowflake, even if it's not by choice. Suicide like that is not cool at all.

I like psychosis suicides when people are so fanatically obsessed with something that they don't mind ensuring their survival - be that fire, building a cake house, etc.

 No.132

I also agree that people should have the right to end their lives if they so choose.

From personal experience, however, I'd recommend not doing it. I tried it once and failed, and it made me realize how awesome life is. Life is full or surprises.

 No.160

>>120
Whether it's honorable or not depends on the situation I guess. Personally I don't respect it. In a general sense, anyway. I think there's a lot to life and most people give up way before they're able to experience it. Though it is your life. Live it or leave it, not like I can tell anyone how to do things. I certainly understand if someone is terminally ill anyway.
I guess I just don't like it much.

 No.161

I think about it almost everyday. There are a handful of people in my life I couldn't do it to. There is a strange comfort I take it accepting it as an option though, kinda keeping it in my back pocket. If life finally beats me in a way I can no longer handle, I can always just tap out.

 No.162

>>130
>people should only do something if the people around them think its cool and honourable.

heh.

personally, my view is usually that everyone has a life and is free to do with it as they please. honor is beside the point; its your life, you can do with it as you please.

personally I've thought about it a lot, but never quite managed it, but not for lack of trying. in retrospect I feel rather ambivalent about my attempts. In the end, I am here, I am alive now, so I might as well keep at it for the time being. eventually I might try again, eventually I might succeed. I wish myself luck to not need to do that, but power to that future me if I choose that road. and of course, the same to all other people in similar situations.

 No.165

if your life is worthless, give it to someone!
i'm sure there's someone out there who would love to own you as a slave!
you are always useful! and if you're my slave, i'll love and care about you.

 No.167

We should all have the right to die. We have the right to live, so why not to die? I think it might empower some people to know that they can always kill themselves as a last resort, just to deal with the things life might throw at them.

Though, if someone wanted to kill themselves, I'd strongly suggest for them not to.

 No.169

>>121,160
There's a lot of promising work being done on anti-aging, anti-senility, rejuvenation, and so on. Staying alive just a little bit longer increases the odds that you won't ever have to die.

>>129,132
Few people ever regret not doing it; many people regret trying; no one ever regrets succeeding.

>>162
You can always put it off till tomorrow. Procrastination may be part of why I'm
still here.

 No.170

>>169
>Staying alive just a little bit longer increases the odds that you won't ever have to die.

Like Tesla's, it's going to be only for those that can afford it first. And all that promising work isn't bringing us to preventing brain rot any time soon. I'm 33. I doubt that any advance in that area will happen in my lifetime. At least not any that I can afford.

 No.209

>Honorable
No, it is not. There are not many honorable things in this world so it doesn't weight down.
>Should it be done at all?
Life doesn't follow a script, there is no guarantee that it will improve; all you can do is make a biased educated guess on what the future holds to you. I don't see a problem in doing it if you think you'll stay miserable, the problem is that it's a dice roll where you decide up to which numbers the move worked.
One thing i hate about suicide is the empty positiveness that people who don't know better try force. There is no way to know that everything will be alright, for all we know it may get worse.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it if you do it with common courtesy, don't make a mess on the floor of a public place…
We don't choose to come into this world much less how we arrive so it is fair to allow us the possibilty of choosing to depart.

 No.210

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As a Christian I oppose suicide, particularly if you're not a Christian, for obvious reasons. You're not escaping pain, you're signing yourself up for it.

In Christianity, there are all sorts of doctrinal explanations regarding the dignity of human life, our status as image-bearers of God, and our self-centered rejection of the role God gave us to live in this life - declaring your judgement that you're better off dead over his judgement that you're where you are to serve a purpose.

That being said, on a universal level using language we can all speak in, simply the fact that you have even one person who will mourn for you is reason enough to make it immoral. Maybe you should have the right to end it anyway, but the way I see it, the very fact that you can end your life is reason enough to never do so

 No.216

>Do you think it's an honorable thing?
No such thing.
>Should it be done at all?
I can imagine plausible scenarios where I would do it, but they're rare enough.
>What is your view about suicide and whatever religion you happen to be a part of?
I would commit suicide if I truly believed that I would be better off dying than living, regardless of how my life might continue. To reach such a point would take very particular circumstances, and I would have to be very sure.

When in doubt, don't do it. Even if you have no doubt, try and induce doubt to see if you have a reason not to. If that doesn't work, feel free to do it. That's my 2c.

 No.217

>>120

> Do you think it's an honorable thing?

Depends on the circumstances entirely, yelling banzai before steering your plane into an aircraft carrier for the good of the homeland, throwing yourself on a grenade for a friend or killing yourself when you have dishonored those around you is certainly 'honorable'. Honor is something we have lost in the west, I believe that honor involves sacrifice, to give ones life for a cause is the supreme sacrifice, the 'supreme' honor perhaps.

I also think there are forms of suicide that are dishonorable, especially suicide to escape pain, physical pain, or emotional pain. The lowest form of suicide is euthanasia, allowing the government to put you down removes the last shreds of self determination from your life. You go into the aehter a bitch.

>whatever religion you happen to be a part of

I am a catholic, we are not supposed to believe in suicide, there are of course exceptions to the rule however.


When I was younger I thought about suicide a lot, sometimes I still think about it, often as a joke, when I embarrass myself or feel awkward about something I'll think "I should just end it all". My proclivity towards suicide reminds me that I am in many cases weak, but I look back at how weak I used to be and I start to feel strong, and that keeps me going, because every day I'm alive I feel like I'm getting better, learning something new etc.

 No.247

I think suicide is weak. It's giving up, not only on yourself but on everyone else around you. And it gives you a terrible reputation and legacy. I don't care about a lot of things, but I don't want to be remembered as a weak person who couldn't deal with whatever cards life gave me.

Of course, during the times when I was just about to attempt suicide, I couldn't think as deeply about those things. Even so, it all goes to show that submitting to suicide means you're emotionally and mentally weak.

 No.248

>>120
I can't soykaf talk it as much as sometimes it hurts to see one take their own life.

However it takes a lot of nerve to really go as far to do the action I have cut myself quite a bit over the years. But the one time I almost succeed in slitting my wrists as I watched the blood all I wanted was to live. So it just is amazing not in a good sense but just an overwhelming ability to just take your life as if it were noting.

 No.249

In today's society the most popular ontological believe is called "naive realism", the concept that the senses provide us with direct awareness of objects as they really are. Realism claims, contrary to idealism, that perceived objects exist in the way that they appear, in and of themselves, independent of a knowing spectator's mind. But I believe that human experience of things is similar to the way they appear to us—implying a fundamentally subject-based component, rather than being an activity that directly (and therefore without any obvious causal link) comprehends the things as they are in themselves. And for me, the true reality is absolute consciousness (=absolute existence).

Therefore, I believe in immortality of the soul, but not in immortality of the ego. So, if you hate existence, suicide is useless, however if you hate your own life in particular, suicide could help to alleviate the suffering.

Naive realism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism
Transcendental idealism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_idealism
Schopenhauer's idealism: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/schopenhauer/#4

 No.250

>>120
I sometimes feel like we're all just a simulation in "gods" game.

 No.251

Sometimes when i feel kinda solipsistic and sober from the material world, i wonder what would really happen if i jumped out of a window.

 No.252

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No one asked to be born, the idea that one should be kept alive against their will is ridiculous.

 No.253

Don't kill yourself OP
Let me do it
I need the frags

 No.254

>>252
Barely anyone asked for a world without corporate enslavement (and they were wrong because it isn't happening yet). The idea that we should keep it from ever happening is ridiculous.

 No.255

>>254
Don't drag this into waters it wasn't chartered for. Stay on topic or get out

 No.256

>>255
I almost care what you want me to do. That argument for not wanting to born is stupid, and you are too if you don't get my point.

 No.258

>>256
I must be, because I can't wrap my head around how being forced into something a compromise is ok. If I gave you a cookie you don't want and force you to pay a $5000 charge, would you just accept it?

 No.259

I don't mind if people kill themselves, that said I wouldn't do it because it's always too late or too soon to do it.
I'm not religious nor atheist, I don't care enough about it to have an opinion

 No.261

>>161
>There is a strange comfort I take it accepting it as an option though, kinda keeping it in my back pocket.
I do the same thing but I realize it's incredibly destructive and unhealthy. It's the only way I rationalize being a neet, since I can always just end it all once my financial situation becomes dire. Basically, you screw yourself by doing nothing to guarantee a future, and dig yourself into a hole too deep to get out of.

 No.262

https://ashspace.org/contribs/carthago_deleta/living_as_a_suicidal.php
>Non-ashers may question the validity of ash and our identity as suicidal people because ashers are alive. It might indeed seem intriguing that one could adhere to the ash values and still be alive. It might seem even stranger that we participate in ash, and even claim were genuinely helped by ash, more than by the conventional psychotherapeutic system. This text is meant to clarify the problem "how to live as suicidal" in the eyes of non-ashers. It has an additional purpose: to prove that ash is not "pro-suicide", as it is often presented in the media, but genuinely pro-choice; that suicidal people can live, even live a better life than non-ashers, by accepting their identity as suicidal rather than by trying to eliminate the suicidal feelings from their souls — as conventional therapy urges us.

There's more than just that, but the first paragraph summarizes the point made. Thought it was worth sharing.

 No.263

>>120

fuck honor. In all your life's decisions honor should play the least important role, that concept has brought nothing but misery to this world.

 No.267

Schopenhauer enhanced and clarified my view of suicide. If you're really interested I would recommend looking up his writings on the subject on librivox

 No.268

>>267
I don't trust armchair experts. I won't accept commentary on suicide from someone who hasn't gone through with it.

 No.269

I think suicide as a decision like every other. I don't see it as something really good or really bad, neither sad or happy. Just a decision that a grow man or woman have the right to make. Yet i feel angry about society saying people shouldn't do it. On the religious side i don't really know I am not a believer but i believe in Karma and self arms don't have a place to play in Karma.

I still believe human race is some kind of mistake and suicide is a waste of something unique that you probably won't experiences soon. It doesn't make it more bearable nonetheless, but it's a nice way to look at it.

 No.271

File: 1517863913270.jpg (148.64 KB, 875x766, IMG_20180131_173454.jpg)

>Do you think it's an honorable thing?
Honor doesn't really concern me. To use a meme term it's a "spook".
>Should it be done at all?
who am I to say yes or no to that question on behalf of someone else? I can't know how another person is feeling truly so I can't say if it's justified or not. Therefore I can't say it should not be done. Of course, I would rather if people I care about did not kill themselves, but ultimately it's their choice. As for me, well, I'm still here so I guess that says something.
>what is your view about suicide and whatever religion you happen to be a part of?
I'm actually surprised about the amount of religious people here. Not that it's really a bad thing. I am not religious, so it doesn't concern me. If there is a hell I'm fucked already.

 No.454

>>271

Honor is a variable for each person, I would argue that it isn't a spook so much as it is a wrapper term for a certain set of peoples ideas that are unique to each person.

Honor is a wrapper that implies keeping with the things I have stated I wish to maintain. If I say "I want to never snitch or betray my friends and family." And to me that would be maintaining a part of myself that I want. Where is the spook implicit in this relation?

 No.456

>>454
That is just feeling proud of being consistent.

 No.458

No, it is not an honourable thing. Suicide is literally a defifnition of giving up. And giving up is an act of cowardice.

 No.459

>>458
Suicide is not an easy way out, it is one of the hardest things to do. You are fighting with instincts that every living being shares and drives much of our behavior. It takes extreme amounts of willpower to successfully pull it of. It's not about giving up, it is about refusal.

 No.460

>>456
Correct, and I would argue that Honor as an abstract entity amounts to nothing more than that. Honor is about maintaining internal consistency. If you place a personal value that consistency, you are placing a value onn your Honor.

This flies in the face of a lot of other definitions that would argue Honor is about how you display that consistency to other people. But this is silly as the only person who it is important to maintain consistency with is yourself IMHO.

 No.461

Reading over this thread, it seems to me that people who were once (or still are) suicidal are more vocally against it than people who weren't affected. People emotionally (or religiously) unaffected and thus having clear judgment mostly think it's neutral, so I suppose it is neutral from a rational perspective. It may be bad emotionally, either for losing someone or being in a bag of soykaf situation where you consider it, but so is many great things in life.

 No.462

>>460
Then there isn't much value to it.
>>458
Giving up is an essential part of moving on with life.
You and everybody else give up on all sorts of things everyday; imagine not giving up until buying coffee on a store that is closed because of the holiday, standing a whole day in front of a closed store to buy a cup of coffee, in the end feeling proud for you are courageous.
This is example is extremely stupid because we give up a lot and nobody is a coward for it.
Regarding suicide, it is taking the next step not giving up, it is realizing you can change what is not working, it is stopping taking the passive route, it is so much more.
Like >>459 said, it is just so extremely hard to do, so many thoughts racing in your head, it takes a lot of courage or desperation.
>>461
>people who were once (or still are) suicidal are more vocally against it
Because it is not a good state of mind; it hurts, the creeping unwelcome thoughts, thinking of the pain your loved ones will feel, so many other things.
I think it's not so much we don't want people reaching the end, more that we don't want people to enter the path. Maybe speaking as "we" is wrong but this is my perception.

 No.463

>>461
I'd say my personal experience disagrees with this observation rather strongly.

I've been suicidal, I have multiple friends who have attempted suicide, many more who've seriously considered it. Perhaps not all of us share the exact view, but the general trend is also neutral. Of course I don't want to encourage you to kill yourself for no good reason, but if you do I don't find any problem with that. Its a choice, if you find your situation merits it, go ahead.

 No.464

>>463

bleh, but this is the utilitarian argument, and it is crap because a person that is in that situation is not in a good headspace to rationally decide if death is actually the better tradeoff over their suffering.

When you are in the midst of suffering it feels like this never ending storm from your perspective, and this makes it impossible to judge the utility of death vs life because you are in an altered or biased mental state.

The utilitarian marginal-utility of life arguments are all shlocky garbage, and abstract out the mental state of the actor involved to make them sound more rational than what actually is happening in practice.

 No.465

>>464
We must also consider however the unnecessarily huge value put on the life and potential of any single random human. Most people are nothing special, and many are outright more trouble than worth. They can and will be replaced from a societal viewpoint, and the personal tragedy of those who cared about this person is inevitable and not at all rare. Problem is, it's rude and hurtful to relatives to be so statistical about it, so everyone is faking empathy and paints suicide as a horrible tragedy where some heavenly potential value was lost, totally excluding the fact that the suicidal guy could have died in an accident tomorrow, or end up a lifeless office drown, drug addict, criminal, unsuccessfully treated case of cancer, etc.

My overall point is that, while indeed suicidal people aren't in a state where they can judge if it's a good tradeoff; unless they are special, what is lost by allowing them to make the wrong choice probably isn't worth the hassle of trying to stop them.

 No.466

>>464
>it is crap because a person that is in that situation is not in a good headspace to rationally decide if death is actually the better tradeoff over their suffering.

I used to hold this sentiment.

Certainly I can see where you come from, given a person who is visibly perturbed by something, behaving erratically and generally stressed out, its arguable that they are in a position where one could justify intervention against the acts of their agent as being ultimately for the best interests of the individual.

Still I feel this is somewhat pretentious, and personally I rather feel that if we are to beleive in human agency we ought to afford those perceived agents with a good deal more respect than this. That person has most likely, seriously considered alternatives, knows their situation better than anyone, certainly better than a random observer, and is doing its best to make a rational choice.

I am not saying you should go to whomever expresses a desire for death, and pass them a loaded gun, but if an agent, through the use of what resources are avaliable to it, kills its person, I cannot see how you can find anything wrong in that what so ever.

 No.467

>>466
You had me up unil
> That person has most likely, seriously considered alternatives, knows their situation better than anyone, certainly better than a random observer, and is doing its best to make a rational choice.

Most people I know are not dumb or average people, and most people who I am very close with I can probably elect to say "it is their life and they can make rational decisions" for most of the set of people I personally know and encounter.

But if you look at like the vast majority of people who commit suicide, it is usually done due to a situation that to the outside observer seems solvable in general. Most people are really really really really fucking stupid. Anyone above one standard deviation or close to that range from the mean IQ I probably trust to make their own decisions on this kind of matter. But if you take a reasonable average? Most people are not emotionally capable to both juggle the stressful mental state, and rationally assess their options.

This is obviously a very anecdotal argument and I don't think that a study of this hypohesis would ever be possible. But I feel like this is a logical argument for what you are refering to as 'pretentious' yes, it is very pretentious but I also think that my pretention will provide a higher value even if incorrect or stupid, than other ways of thinking about personal agency.

tldr; I treat agents in this system with respect if they are demonstrably above average in intelligence or in some other measure, probably capable of making these decisions in a rational way, and I error on the side of caution with people who are of normal intelligence, even at the risk of insulting them and being pretentious.

 No.468

Complex Numbers ft А. Климковский - Часть 4. Ты в мире один (бета)
https://youtu.be/Wn75ZDKI29I



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